12:21 There's Something About Mary
We are discussing Something About Mary, Season 12, Episode 21. Supernatural fulfills their annual tradition of killing off a recurring character during this episode! We ask: Why is Rick putting a bloody machete in the hallway? What should we call Lady Fancy Pants? What is happening to Mary? Is she really brainwashed? We analyze her brainwashing stages against psychologist Robert Jay Lifton's defined process.
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Transcript
On this week's episode of Devil's Trap podcast, we feature Lady B.
Speaker A:Or is it Lady Bevel?
Speaker A:Is it Lady Fancy Pants?
Speaker A:Or is it just that Bevel bitch?
Speaker B:And we ask, is Mary Winchester brainwashed or is she just fine?
Speaker B:Let's do this.
Speaker B:Welcome to this week's episode of Devil's Trap podcast.
Speaker B:I'm Diana.
Speaker A:And I'm Liz.
Speaker B:And we're going to talk about season 12, episode 21.
Speaker B:There's something about Mary.
Speaker A:Yeah, there is something about her.
Speaker A:And we'll talk about all of that.
Speaker A:So before we do that, what have you been up to?
Speaker B:I have been up to lots of things dealing with puppy.
Speaker B:Our puppy socket that we added to our household.
Speaker B:So that's been super fun and stressful because puppies are a lot.
Speaker B:And then I went to a concert at a new venue and then I went to see a documentary about a 30 minute short about Joshua Walker called thank you for Listening.
Speaker B:And I had a brunch and I had family stuff and I think that's it.
Speaker B:About that in Tuxas Monthly there is about that film.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was kind of cool.
Speaker B:Is Dallas International Film Festival, which has been growing a lot and some friends of mine are involved with it.
Speaker B:So glad to go support and go to the Texas Theater, which is a cool indie theater in Dallas if you.
Speaker B:They show regular movies too.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, all the things.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:How about you?
Speaker A:Oh, I haven't been up to anything.
Speaker A:Just waiting for the new.
Speaker A:It happens tonight at midnight, episode five of the Boys Will Drop and we will finally get to see Jared and Jensen and Misha together.
Speaker A:And I really am just waiting for that to happen.
Speaker A:So beyond that, no, not up to much of anything.
Speaker A:And that means, unfortunately, the boys are not up to anything either.
Speaker A:I think they're also like, maybe.
Speaker A:I bet everything's gonna explode tomorrow like once it.
Speaker B:So y' all be watching it in real time and you listen to this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So everyone will know, like, what, Whatever.
Speaker A:All I know is that it was disgusting.
Speaker A:So that's.
Speaker A:I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker A:I'm not surprised.
Speaker A:Kripke has been, you know, with the boys.
Speaker A:Disgusting in a very fun way.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And so there's no news on that.
Speaker A:So I guess we can just jump right into this episode.
Speaker A:And so there's Something About Mary was written because that was the name of a movie and in that movie was also something that was gross.
Speaker A:But this was season two and that's what that movie is known for.
Speaker A:I'm sorry, that's it.
Speaker A:The only thing it's known for.
Speaker A:And so this was season 12, episode 21.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:You can always tell if you're watching this on video, and if you're not, why aren't you?
Speaker A:You can watch it on video on Spotify.
Speaker A:You can watch it on YouTube.
Speaker A:You should be subscribed to that.
Speaker A:And following it, soon you'll be able to watch on Apple podcast because they're releasing video, too.
Speaker A:So you can see me every time I say the date that I look at the calendar to see what day it is to see if we're in alignment.
Speaker B:We're close.
Speaker A:We're close.
Speaker A:So when we release this, yeah, we're not there, but it's around the same time of year.
Speaker A:That's always fun.
Speaker A:And so we're in the same season.
Speaker A:And it was directed by PJ Pesci.
Speaker A:And this season he did Family Feud and was written by Buckner, Ross Lemming, and that duo.
Speaker A:This season did quite a bit.
Speaker A:They did episode two, Mamma Mia.
Speaker A:Ate Lotus.
Speaker A:They did Family Feud as well.
Speaker A:And then they also did 17, the British invasion.
Speaker A:And we'll talk about them pretty soon in a minute because they do something.
Speaker A:But in our recap, Eileen is on there, and we see that she missed Dagon and hit that douche.
Speaker A:Dr. Hess is a lady Bevel is a cunt.
Speaker A:They all want to kill all the American hunters.
Speaker A:There's a spawn of Lucifer, Mary fucks Catch.
Speaker A:Stop reminding us.
Speaker A:Catch.
Speaker A:Offering to help Mary.
Speaker A:And she headbutts his sorry ass.
Speaker A:And then she hits him with the brass knuckles, which was also fun.
Speaker A:But then he gets her with a Taser, which was.
Speaker A:Which is less fun.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker A:And that's our recap.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So we open with Eileen being chased through the woods by a Hellhound.
Speaker B:What the.
Speaker B:And she shoots it a whole, whole lot, but it throws her around a whole bunch instead.
Speaker B:She does not hurt her.
Speaker B:Or it doesn't hurt it to be shot.
Speaker B:So it flings her around.
Speaker B:It's actually an interesting shooting.
Speaker A:It's so good.
Speaker A:She invisibly dies.
Speaker A:But she's, like, on.
Speaker A:Like, I guess she's on wires probably, but just probably.
Speaker A:Or, you know, they.
Speaker A:Or they green screened her out on Bucking Bull.
Speaker A:Like, it was just like her flopping around a lot by.
Speaker A:On an invisible dog.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then she did.
Speaker A:And I'm kind of surprised that the gunshots did not do anything to the dog.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't think it kills a Hellhound, but I thought it would, like, slow it down.
Speaker A:I Mean, he killed him with knives before, you know, so I don't know.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But there's.
Speaker A:So she.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:Then, like, she invisibly dies.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And then Catch is there with a dog whistle, and the hellhound stops, and he says, good puppy.
Speaker B:And it's gross when he says it.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:I don't like.
Speaker A:Everything he does is disgusting.
Speaker A:And this.
Speaker A:This part.
Speaker A:This is from the wiki.
Speaker A:Some fans were upset with the killing of Eileen, and they saw it as them also killing, like, another character.
Speaker A:Like, similar to, like, when they killed Charlie in season 10.
Speaker A:But this.
Speaker A:So there was a hashtag, fire buckling.
Speaker A:Who are the writers?
Speaker A:That was trending on Twitter during this broadcast.
Speaker A:And also, interestingly enough, so Eileen was killed off in this episode.
Speaker A:And since season nine, the 21st episode of each season has included the death of a recurring character.
Speaker A:So Abaddon was killed in season nine, Charlie was killed in season ten, and Metatron was killed in season eleven.
Speaker A:And now we have Eileen.
Speaker A:So that's an interesting fact.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker B:That is interesting.
Speaker B:Well, we cut from the woods to Sam and Dean entering a motel room.
Speaker B:And they're calling out for their mom.
Speaker B:And the room looks lived in, but not recently.
Speaker A:It's just, like, messy as hell.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:And apparently her stuff's gone.
Speaker B:So, like, is they just.
Speaker B:Is she just, like, still paying for this hotel or this motel while she's not.
Speaker A:And that's what I'm telling.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:So her stuff is gone.
Speaker A:It's a mess.
Speaker A:It's weird, right?
Speaker A:And Dean can't get a hold of Mick.
Speaker A:Shocking.
Speaker A:And calls because he's dead.
Speaker A:And he calls Catch and has a quote, unquote conversation with him.
Speaker A:And Catch lies again and says he hasn't seen her in over a week.
Speaker B:And I like that.
Speaker B:Dean hangs up and says, such a dick.
Speaker B:It's good.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And they.
Speaker B:But they're like, wait a minute.
Speaker B:Mom called three days ago and said she was working a case with Catch.
Speaker B:And that's how they know that Catch is lying to them.
Speaker A:Busted.
Speaker B:So then Sam gets a call from Jody, and this is upsetting.
Speaker B:It's where she.
Speaker B:You know, he's like, he.
Speaker B:He tells her you hadn't heard and what happened.
Speaker B:He gets off the phone, and Dean knows that it's somebody who's dead.
Speaker B:And he says, who?
Speaker B:And it's Eileen.
Speaker B:And Sam is very sad.
Speaker A:They're very sad.
Speaker A:And they're told, you know, she was, quote, you know, mauled by an animal in a place where animals really aren't or she was, but she was in South Carolina.
Speaker A:They think that's weird because she was supposed to be in Ireland.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they also think it's at least the second hunter death they.
Speaker A:In two weeks they know about.
Speaker A:So maybe that means Mary is the third.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So they are very concerned.
Speaker B:So they're going to drive to South Carolina and go check out Eileen's body in the morgue.
Speaker B:That didn't come out right.
Speaker B:They are going to go look at the case surrounding Eileen's death.
Speaker A:Check out Eileen's body.
Speaker A:That's not what I meant.
Speaker B:Damn.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker A:I mean, well, it is also kind of weird because Sam to kind of have a crush on her.
Speaker A:And so, like, I'm like, should you be looking at her dead?
Speaker A:Like, oh, no.
Speaker A:But so.
Speaker A:But they're suited up when they go do this.
Speaker A:So we tell they're pretending to be feds.
Speaker A:And Dean just thinks, though, that the marks are hellhounds, but it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they're still confused why she was there and not in Ireland.
Speaker B:That's the other thing.
Speaker B:So now they are discussing that it is not two or three hunters.
Speaker B:It is seven hunters in three weeks that they know of.
Speaker B:So this is beyond a pattern at this point.
Speaker B:And they don't really think that monsters and demons are teaming up, so it has to be something else.
Speaker B:And Sam spirals.
Speaker B:He is upset and he is spiraling,.
Speaker A:But he also just wants to punch something in the face, which I agree.
Speaker A:Sometimes you just want to punch something in the face.
Speaker A:And Dean wants him to hold on to that because dealing with hellhounds means dealing with you know who.
Speaker A:And so we're gonna cut to Crowley's lair.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Where he is yelling at a demon to find Kelly Klein.
Speaker B:And the demons very.
Speaker B:He knows that Dagon is dead.
Speaker B:And so Dagon can't protect Kelly anymore.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But also, also, Lucifer's son's almost due to be born at this point, and they don't know how powerful he's going to be.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, it is Crowley's like, I'm gonna have to motivate you with some, you know, pride to get you more pride in your work.
Speaker A:And he takes him down.
Speaker B:Threatening.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And he takes him down the hall.
Speaker A:And we cut from that to a house, though, and there is a hunter who comes in and he puts a machete that needs to be cleaned, and.
Speaker B:It's a very bloody machete in his umbrella stand.
Speaker B:Isn't that what he puts it in?
Speaker A:I don't want an umbrella stand.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But that's what he's using it for.
Speaker A:It's right by the door.
Speaker B:Ew.
Speaker A:I feel like he should have cleaned that outside with the hose.
Speaker B:And he's bloody too.
Speaker B:It's very messy.
Speaker B:Like, you don't come and do it.
Speaker B:Looks like an apart as an apartment.
Speaker A:I don't know house or.
Speaker A:No, it looked nice.
Speaker B:No, it wasn't bad.
Speaker B:But you still just like, don't go in.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You feel like you wouldn't carry that inside.
Speaker A:Yeah, I would.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And Mary's there waiting for him and startles him, but they obviously know each other and his name is Rick, and they have a little banter and she's inviting him on a vamp nest hunt nearby.
Speaker A:And they kind of have this cordial back and forth and, you know, he just gives the.
Speaker A:You know, the Brits have been giving him problems, and he goes to get them some beers, but when he goes to get the beers, he can see a reflection.
Speaker A:And Mary has popped open a knife and she attacks him.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And he.
Speaker B:But he quickly smashes a beer bottle to make his weapon for himself to fight back.
Speaker B:Which I was like, oh, smooth.
Speaker B:Either way, he slips and falls and she slits his throat.
Speaker B:Yikes.
Speaker B:Yikes.
Speaker B:Why is Mary killing hunters?
Speaker A:So scary.
Speaker A:And we get back to the Brit lair where there is Mary, and she wakes up and she's just sweaty and confused until in comes in Lady Fancy Pants.
Speaker B:Ugh.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:I think I called her Bevel.
Speaker B:That was my.
Speaker B:This time.
Speaker B:I know you like your Lady Fancy Pants pants.
Speaker B:I went with devil.
Speaker A:I. I call her like Lady B sometimes in this.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So Mary's like, hey, did I leave the building last night and be just with her?
Speaker B:Like, oh, can you not tell the difference between fact and fiction?
Speaker B:She's such a. Anyways, she is.
Speaker B:So Mary's like, no, I'm fine.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:But she's having flashbacks to being injected by that weird potion that Bevel wanted to do for to.
Speaker B:With people's brains.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:That's my summary.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so she's pumped full of meds, and she wants to know if that.
Speaker A:If they're brainwashing her.
Speaker A:And Lady B says that she's being realigned to get rid of the illusion of a perfect life of a husband and kids.
Speaker A:But then she says that you kept secrets from them, like, that you're the one who invited Yellow Eyes to spare come in so you could spare John's life.
Speaker A:And then she drops in like, this other that Mary didn't know, like, about John going mad, searching for revenge, getting drunk and abandoning his children for weeks, leaving them permanently damaged.
Speaker A:I mean,.
Speaker B:It's not wrong.
Speaker A:She's not wrong.
Speaker A:Mary should have figured that.
Speaker A:They should have told her this by now.
Speaker A:She should have figured it out from his journals.
Speaker A:Like, I'm.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:So it's still a lot to dump on her and.
Speaker A:But she basically explains that they're trying to return her to be Mary Campbell, natural born killer.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And she's a key role to helping them eliminate all the American hunters, basically.
Speaker B:And Mary's like, no, and I won't do that.
Speaker B:And Bevel's like, maybe you already have.
Speaker B:So shitty.
Speaker B:So Mary lunges at her and gets punched in the face, which is kind of surprising.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And Lady B thinks that was an interesting choice.
Speaker A:And soon she won't be making any, though.
Speaker A:What does that mean?
Speaker A:And she leaves.
Speaker A:And then Mary looks at her hand and she can see in her hand stitches.
Speaker A:Because she got stitches when Rick cut her.
Speaker B:So she probably did kill Rick.
Speaker B:So up.
Speaker B:It's like a. Oh, that's.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we're still in the British lair, but there's another part.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Dr. Hess is going through files and Crowley greets her.
Speaker B:So Crowley knows Dr. Hess.
Speaker A:What the.
Speaker B:I guess it makes sense because she's kind of evil.
Speaker A:She is kind of evil.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:So we learned some interesting things.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:So we learned that Crowley gave Catch the Hellhound.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:So we learned that.
Speaker A:And then he's like, well, we want to make sure that we had the same arrangement here that we have in the uk and apparently they've made this arrangement that as long as the demons are making deals with people who were dumb enough to sell their souls and they share information with the Hunters.
Speaker A:With the hunters, with the British Men of Letters, then they're allowed to do that.
Speaker A:And kind of like the other demons can't be running about.
Speaker A:But crossroad demons can do that because humans are stupid.
Speaker A:And so this covers some canon because they, you know, they had to explain, like, remember Bella?
Speaker A:Like, Bella making the deal with a demon in England?
Speaker A:So, like, if there weren't any, like, monsters in England, how did that happen?
Speaker A:So apparently those demons are allowed to.
Speaker A:So that's the clause in.
Speaker B:They can't just run around willy nilly.
Speaker B:They can only be making deals for souls, Period.
Speaker B:The end.
Speaker B:There's no, like, half ass.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, other minions can't be.
Speaker A:I don't know what else they'd be doing up There.
Speaker A:But, you know, doing other demon stuff.
Speaker B:I don't know, whatever.
Speaker A:Just, you know, causing demon mischief, making people, you know, I don't.
Speaker A:I don't know what else demons.
Speaker A:What do demons do on vacation while they're up on Earth?
Speaker A:Who knows?
Speaker A:Okay,.
Speaker B:So, yeah, so we've learned that and that.
Speaker B:But the other big thing is information sharing.
Speaker B:So Crowley's like, yeah, speaking of information sharing, the Nephilim.
Speaker B:And so they're talking about obviously, Lucifer's baby.
Speaker B:And she's.
Speaker B:Hess is like, yeah, I could kill you and me and the entire universe.
Speaker B:So, duh.
Speaker B:Currently's like, I'll be a team player.
Speaker B:You know, my demons are scouring the country.
Speaker B:And she's just like, oh, yeah, sure.
Speaker B:But also, your relationship with the Winchesters is a little too cozy, So not.
Speaker B:It's kind of interesting that she knows that.
Speaker B:But anyways, I guess she knows all these things.
Speaker A:She knows a doctor has.
Speaker A:Knows a lot of things, as we will find out through this episode.
Speaker A:As she is.
Speaker A:She, you know, breaks more things.
Speaker A:So we go back to the asylum.
Speaker B:Where Lucifer's helper demon that we met last week or a couple.
Speaker B:Not last week, a few weeks ago, though.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker B:He's there helping checking Lucifer out.
Speaker B:He's got a key and he's gonna do his examination, which is basically, he stands there and holds his hands over Lucifer's chest.
Speaker B:Is like, woo.
Speaker B:And he's like, it completes.
Speaker B:Completed my examination.
Speaker B:Lucifer's like, what the.
Speaker B:I just need to get out of here.
Speaker B:And we get a little, like, for.
Speaker B:Continue.
Speaker B:The explanation of why he can't leave.
Speaker B:And basically it's this.
Speaker B:Secure.
Speaker B:The security system that Crowley put inside of Lucifer has him stuck there.
Speaker B:And Lucifer's like, I'm.
Speaker B:I'm just ready to roll the dice.
Speaker B:I feel like I'm.
Speaker B:If it's at its minimum power and I'm at my maximum power, let's go.
Speaker B:Is his.
Speaker B:Is his take.
Speaker B:He's.
Speaker B:He's over it.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But we have happening is Crowley's returned early from his errand, visiting Dr. Hess.
Speaker B:And he is on the phone with Sam, who is asking him about Eileen and the Hellhound.
Speaker B:And he insists that he doesn't know her and that he was just cuddling with his Hellhounds.
Speaker B:They can't be missing.
Speaker A:And he doesn't care about dead hunters.
Speaker A:And so he goes into Lucifer, Lucifer's room, and he thinks maybe he can use Lucifer to take out Dr. Hess.
Speaker A:But also, do you know where your baby and baby mama are?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And he's like, well, listeners, why.
Speaker B:Why would I to give you that information?
Speaker B:And why would I know?
Speaker B:And Crowley's like, well, Dagon's dead, and now your baby mama and your baby are in the clutches of Winchester's love.
Speaker A:Slave, Castiel, who is probably kill in the process of killing her.
Speaker A:But Crowley has his own plan, and he's going to raise this baby as his own.
Speaker A:And he's tried to do this before.
Speaker A:I think he really wants a child.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know we had Gavin, but he didn't really, you know, raise Gavin.
Speaker A:So I think, like, deep down, I think he's got some inner bio, you know, the biological clock.
Speaker A:So Lucifer passes on this idea and Crowley leaves him to the room with Drexel, who's just hiding behind the door.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So we see an unconscious Mary being carried back into her cell, and she is having.
Speaker B:Continuing to have dreams about killing Rick, which seems unfortunate.
Speaker B:And Lady Bevelin is in the hall and she runs into catch and Dr. Hess and Brags about how they're.
Speaker B:She's accelerating Mary's sessions.
Speaker B:And Catch, like, just mocks her and she calls him a psychopath.
Speaker B:I just found it interesting that, like, they're both psychopaths.
Speaker B:That was my observation.
Speaker B:I was like, huh.
Speaker A:Anybody who can kill another student when they're a child is likely.
Speaker A:I guess maybe that's technically a sociopath and something that was made.
Speaker B:But both of them.
Speaker A:But yeah.
Speaker A:But also, Lady B is really, really thirsty for accolades for.
Speaker A:From Dr. Hess.
Speaker A:You also can tell us this.
Speaker A:And then Dr. Hess then starts dropping more stuff, right?
Speaker A:Because she's like, oh, yeah, watch this.
Speaker A:And she tells Catch that soon Lady B may be reporting to him, but Catch objects that, you know, I'm not an administrator and he's Dr. Cass.
Speaker A:Hess is like, oh, you'll be fine.
Speaker A:And of course I know you slept with both Mary and Lady Bevel,.
Speaker B:Because she knows all.
Speaker A:But how does she know that he slept with Mary?
Speaker A:That's gross.
Speaker A:Like, were you.
Speaker A:But was she bugging his rooms too?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:So ick.
Speaker B:So ick.
Speaker B:I don't actually expect that he would be super discreet about anything like that with this group.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, and.
Speaker B:But they all.
Speaker B:But they also know that, like, she basically tells him straight up that Lady Babel is desperate for this job that she's basically promising to him.
Speaker B:So she's just setting them up for this.
Speaker B:Like, to put it at odds, the pitting.
Speaker A:She's pitting them against each other.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:So we cut to Sam and Deer at the post office.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So they've got a.
Speaker A:They've got a post office box in Lebanon, Kansas, where they get their.
Speaker A:They get their mail sent to you.
Speaker A:They get their little P.O.
Speaker A:Box.
Speaker A:And Sam's outside.
Speaker A:He's been calling around, trying to get some more information about.
Speaker A:About the hunters.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And all the dead hunters so far are experienced.
Speaker B:So it's extra shocking, this, that all these hunters have died.
Speaker B:Dean finds in their mail a letter for Myene.
Speaker B:It arrived.
Speaker B:It was from four days ago.
Speaker B:And she was afraid to call her email because she was convinced that she had been hacked and was being tracked by the British Men of Letters.
Speaker B:And she left Ireland for that reason out of fear.
Speaker B:And that's why she was trying to come back.
Speaker A:And she found a microphone in her room, which they kind of go.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker A:Like, it.
Speaker A:Like, it makes a light bulb go off for them.
Speaker A:But then she asked to stay with them, and it was really sweet.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:I was, like, upset.
Speaker B:Just like.
Speaker B:So they go back to the bunker, and they are searching for bugs, and they search.
Speaker B:We actually.
Speaker B:It's actually kind of parallel to, like, what we saw.
Speaker B:The British minute letters.
Speaker B:Like, all the stuff they were going through.
Speaker B:Kind of.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But Dean starts in the fridge, which would be a really stupid place to put a recording device, correct?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:But then they finally find the one under the map.
Speaker A:Oh, also, though.
Speaker A:But Sam is just running his hand, like, all over those shelves, and there is no dust anywhere.
Speaker A:So, like, I think they're doing a really good job of keeping the bunker free of dust.
Speaker B:Do they have a housekeeper that we don't?
Speaker A:Well, someone would have to come in, right?
Speaker A:And I can't see Dean and Sam hiring a housekeeper.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's fair.
Speaker A:Maybe it's Sam.
Speaker B:I feel like it should come with a house elf.
Speaker B:Is there's just a house elf there that we don't know about.
Speaker A:A magic spell that, like, keeps the dust off the books.
Speaker B:I mean, hey, I'll take it.
Speaker B:So they finally find it, and they fake a conversation when they find this bug.
Speaker B:Because basically, like.
Speaker B:Well, if not, they don't fake it.
Speaker B:They have a real conversation about a fake meeting.
Speaker A:About a fake meeting with the one bug that they found, which I still think was really stupid that they were there for that long and they only plucked in one bug.
Speaker B:One.
Speaker B:That was a lot.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So they are.
Speaker B:They're gonna go meet at the old iron works the next night.
Speaker B:So back at the asylum, in Lucifer's cell, I guess.
Speaker B:Anyways.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Drexel is explaining the risk of escape to Lucifer.
Speaker B:And Lucifer's like, I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm not having it.
Speaker B:You just need to check the device again.
Speaker B:And it's explained that it's cemented into Lucifer's DNA and the king.
Speaker B:So Crowley's DNA.
Speaker B:So when they put the stuff that's in that makes the cage for Crow for Lucifer inside of him, they tied it to Crowley, too.
Speaker A:So Crowley could be the one that controlled him.
Speaker B:Got it.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:But because Lucifer's power is growing, the ability to control is transferring from Crowley to Lucifer.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:The polarity is reversing.
Speaker A:So now Lucifer is going to be able to control Crowley.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So back in the British Men of Letters compound, Catch and Lay Bavel are feeding the Hellhound.
Speaker B:And it's kind of funny when, like, they.
Speaker B:Catch is like, oh, she's.
Speaker B:She sat for you.
Speaker B:Good girl.
Speaker B:And like, Lady Bevel's like, how could you tell?
Speaker B:He's like, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker B:I just want to be nice.
Speaker B:I don't like the dog.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:He's like, I didn't want to.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:Was call it a bad dog because he's afraid of it, really.
Speaker A:Like, he didn't want to make it mad.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker A:The whole puppy thing is, you know, really amusing.
Speaker A:And he brings up the fact that now he knows that she wants mixed job.
Speaker A:And Dr. Hess said it was his to turn down, but she thinks it's funny because she was told the exact same thing.
Speaker B:And they also discussed that they were banging and how much they used to go, like, they used to, like, compete with each other, but they also banged a bunch.
Speaker B:They also laugh about that.
Speaker B:It's weird.
Speaker B:They did.
Speaker A:And Lady B thinks that America is hers because she has been studying it for a long time.
Speaker A:And this is going on until Dr. Hess busts in on the intercom and tells Catch that the prisoner is asking for him.
Speaker A:Him.
Speaker B:And then another person walks in and after he leaves and says, hey, Lady Bevel, I've got something for.
Speaker B:I've got news for you too.
Speaker A:Well, and before that, she's watching the hellhound, like, lick itself.
Speaker A:Like, it can't be, like, chewy the steak still.
Speaker A:It's making slurping sounds.
Speaker A:So before the eavesdropper comes in and tells her that the dog is just going.
Speaker A:And I'm like, what the is that dog doing?
Speaker B:I don't know, girl.
Speaker B:I got puppies.
Speaker B:I'll tell you.
Speaker B:They can make a lot of noise because.
Speaker A:So anyway, so the eavesdropper Comes in and tells her that she has news.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And while that's happening, Catch goes to see Mary and she smiles and says she didn't think he would come and asks if she's losing her mind or if this is real and what do they want her to do?
Speaker B:And he's in.
Speaker B:Cat's like, oh, what you're doing, you're doing really well.
Speaker B:And she's like, I'm crying about.
Speaker B:She cries about killing her friend.
Speaker B:And Catch is like, I do it all the time.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker B:How many friends do you have, Psycho?
Speaker A:And he doesn't have many because he keeps killing them all.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And she's just very upset.
Speaker B:And that she feels like she's, you know, she's fought with him and that, you know, she believed in everything that they were doing for a world without monsters.
Speaker B:And Cat's like, what do you want me to do?
Speaker B:You think I'm going to intervene here in your behalf?
Speaker B:And she's like, we.
Speaker B:We know each other.
Speaker B:And he's like, I don't know you.
Speaker B:And you don't know me.
Speaker A:You don't know me.
Speaker A:You don't know me.
Speaker B:And you wouldn't want to.
Speaker A:Emotion.
Speaker A:Emotionally damaged men.
Speaker A:That is what that is.
Speaker A:That is emotionally damaged man who just think, you can't know me.
Speaker A:I'm too complex.
Speaker A:You wouldn't even want to know the stuff that goes on in here.
Speaker A:It is so hard.
Speaker A:Okay, so.
Speaker A:And then she begs for his help and she pulls his gun.
Speaker A:And then she tries to kill herself.
Speaker B:Yeah, she steals his gun while she's hugging him.
Speaker B:Then she points it at him.
Speaker B:Then she points at herself and he runs at her.
Speaker B:And he's able to get the gun from her quickly.
Speaker B:And then so she drops down her knees and is asking him to kill her.
Speaker B:She's like, all she had other than her family was her own will.
Speaker B:And that's going away.
Speaker B:And now she's putting people in danger.
Speaker B:So just kill me.
Speaker B:And he's just like, it'll all be over soon.
Speaker B:And he leaves.
Speaker B:This scene is upsetting.
Speaker B:I don't like it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So he promises that.
Speaker A:And she cries a bunch.
Speaker A:And he leaves her and he locks her in.
Speaker A:And she's just sitting in there looking defeated.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So Sam and Dean have pulled up to their fake meeting at the warehouse, and the obviously our why it's the British Men of Letters team is there.
Speaker B:We see two dudes run in, and Lady Bevel is sitting in the car watching.
Speaker B:And inside the warehouse, we see our British Men of Letters dudes get locked in by Sam and Dean because they tricked them into thinking they went inside.
Speaker B:And they get Lady Bevel at gunpoint.
Speaker B:Takes a minute, though.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Lady Velvet rocks her guns, and when her window breaks, she shoots.
Speaker A:And then they're outside and they.
Speaker A:She racks Dean.
Speaker A:So that was pretty good.
Speaker A:And so that fight happens, like you said.
Speaker A:Sam gets a gun on her.
Speaker A:And then we cut from there back to the asylum where Crowley is taunting Lucifer who sewers him that the baby is still alive.
Speaker A:And as Crowley monologues, Lucifer starts testing out his powers.
Speaker A:And he starts doing little things and everything he does, Crowley mirrors.
Speaker A:And they're just little stuff at first.
Speaker A:And then it gets bigger and bigger until Crowley is flop flapping like a chicken and hopping on one foot.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then.
Speaker A:Then he calls Crowley a muppet.
Speaker B:He does call him a muppet.
Speaker B:So Sam and Dean are driving with Lady Bevel in the car at gunfire point.
Speaker B:And Sam asks about Eileen and asks if they.
Speaker B:And they ask if.
Speaker B:If she killed her.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But Lady Bevel says, probably.
Speaker B:If you think we killed someone, we probably did.
Speaker A:It's a rule of thumb that you should.
Speaker A:That you should follow with them.
Speaker A:And then she is like, we're gonna come for you, and we may send your mom, who's our forever guest, which is just not a thing anybody wants to be called.
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:And they're like, you see her as mummy, but we see her as a number one, as one of our best killers.
Speaker B:And you think she was only working with Catch.
Speaker B:And then she's gonna taunt them with the fact that she knows that Marion Catch banged and because she knows it's going to upset them.
Speaker A:And that really does get under Dean's skin.
Speaker A:And Sam stops him from killing her.
Speaker A:And they finally learn that Mick is dead.
Speaker B:Yeah, they finally ask about Mick, finally.
Speaker B:And they're like, oh, wait.
Speaker B:And she's like, oh, he's dead.
Speaker B:And he was too sentimental.
Speaker B:Like every hunter in the U.S. and yeah, that's what we're doing there.
Speaker A:And she tells him that all the US hunters are going to join him soon, including Jody and Claire.
Speaker A:They're all dead.
Speaker A:So she's naming more people and they're freaking out.
Speaker A:And then we go back to the asylum where Lucifer has shed his chains.
Speaker B:Yeah, he gets a big old stretch.
Speaker B:And Crowley's like, look, I'm just.
Speaker B:To be clear, I'll totally accept that you're in charge.
Speaker B:I like this.
Speaker B:You're a big picture.
Speaker B:I can do the everyday thing.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:Because he's trying to save his ass.
Speaker B:And he tries to run, but gets flung through the doors into the larger room where the other demons are doing administrative work like normal.
Speaker B:And gets.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker B:He gets flung again.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:He gets tossed around until Lucifer grabs an angel blade and raises Crowley in the air.
Speaker A:And Mark Shepherd's acting was just incredible on this.
Speaker B:Like, everything.
Speaker A:Like, it was not Mark's.
Speaker A:Everyone's acting was great, but he did some really cool, like, physical stuff in this.
Speaker A:And Lucifer makes his wings show, and then he winks,.
Speaker B:Says, this is gonna hurt.
Speaker B:And he punches Crowley, who lands on the floor.
Speaker B:And we notice there's a rat in there.
Speaker B:And I feel like they make sure you notice this.
Speaker A:Yeah, we see Crowley sees the rat, too.
Speaker A:And then Lucifer stabs him.
Speaker A:And Crowley's body is laying there.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So Sam and Dean and Lady Bevel arrive at the bunker, and Dean's like, you need to call Catch, and if he wants to see you alive again, he needs to get here.
Speaker B:But guess what?
Speaker B:His, quote prissy ass is already there waiting for them.
Speaker B:Sam and Dean are surrounded, and.
Speaker B:And Lady Bevel starts to disarm Sam.
Speaker B:It's all crazy, but he's like this.
Speaker B:And he grabs her and he starts shooting.
Speaker B:So does Dean.
Speaker B:There's a lot of shooting.
Speaker B:It was a pretty bold move.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so Sam ends up taking Lady B hostage while Dean shoots the British Men of Letters until he has a gun on Catch.
Speaker A:And so they want to know where Mary is.
Speaker A:And they're like, where is our mom?
Speaker A:And right when they're asking, Mary comes in and she puts the gun on Sam.
Speaker A:And then she shoots at Dean, like, who's, like, above the wall, like, what's going on?
Speaker A:And now catches double fisting guns and telling the boys that she's gonna shoot him.
Speaker A:And then Mary takes Sam's gun, and now she's double fisting, and they're all like, oh, there's like.
Speaker A:I hate when I've seen people do that.
Speaker B:Don't.
Speaker A:Don't have two guns and one gun in each hand.
Speaker A:It looks really stupid.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker B:Yeah, And Lady Bevel's talking, and Catch is talking about how Mary's no longer confused about following orders.
Speaker B:It's very upsetting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And Barry is walking out with Catch, and Lady B is not coming.
Speaker A:She is expendable.
Speaker A:Dean pleads with Mary.
Speaker A:Catch gives his evil man monologue, explains everything that's going to happen in the bunker and how the bunker is going to become their tomb and they're all going to die in There.
Speaker B:Yeah, because it's gonna.
Speaker B:They've reversed the air vent, so they're gonna run out of oxygen in two to three days.
Speaker B:And they read it on locks, and they're getting locked in, and there's no more water, which is terrifying.
Speaker B:Also, like, underground.
Speaker B:That would freak me out.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So the.
Speaker B:He, Catch and Mary leave Sam, Dean, and Lady Bubble there.
Speaker B:I lock them in.
Speaker A:Lock them in.
Speaker A:Power goes down in the bunker, and the air pumps start going off, and they cut from there to the asylum.
Speaker A:And Drexel has been tasked with fixing the door.
Speaker A:And he's got to get the door fixed before Lucifer gets back, who's gonna be really mad.
Speaker A:And the other minion wants to know what to do with Crowley's body.
Speaker A:And we're like, well, I guess just toss it.
Speaker A:And they drag it out.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're dragging it, but there's a rat following.
Speaker A:There's a rat scurrying after.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So Catch and Mary are talking, and he is telling her that the treatment was successful and things will become easier.
Speaker B:And she's like, easier to hurt people I love.
Speaker B:So she, like, knows she's doing it.
Speaker B:I'm so confused.
Speaker B:Anyways, yeah, he's like, easier to hurt people you don't remember loving, which is even more upsetting, I guess.
Speaker B:I don't even know.
Speaker B:And he asks her how she feels.
Speaker B:She says, fine.
Speaker B:Him.
Speaker A:I'm fine.
Speaker A:Like a perfect woman thing to say.
Speaker A:I am fine.
Speaker A:And then every time I tell you that, it means I'm not.
Speaker A:And we are going to talk about kind of your confusion.
Speaker A:And we're going to talk about brainwashing.
Speaker A:So this is Lore.
Speaker A:Hey.
Speaker A:And we're going to talk about whether or not Mary Winchester has been brainwashed.
Speaker A:So we're going to talk about what the definition of just kind of.
Speaker A:So we're going to talk about what it is, and we're going to compare to some stuff.
Speaker A: ur main source for Today is a: Speaker A:And a.
Speaker A:And according to them, their definition of brainwashing is that it refers to both coercive persuasion and a systematic process aimed at altering an individual's beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors through various psychological and manipulative means.
Speaker A:And so we're not talking about just advertising influencing you.
Speaker A:We're talking about a systematic process breaking down somebody's belief.
Speaker A:Something that usually occurs in isolation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And did you know that while recognized as a war crime by.
Speaker A:In the Geneva Conventions, brainwashing is not Technically illegal, huh?
Speaker A:Like so like it's, it's a war crime, but there's really nothing against, like there's some things against fraud, but there's not really anything against, you know, you doing this to somebody.
Speaker A:It's not illegal.
Speaker A:Isn't it interesting?
Speaker A:I mean, I don't know why like what the law would be.
Speaker B:But yeah, I'm like, how would you write that?
Speaker B:But also does that mean like, is there other certain like things where people would opt to be brain.
Speaker B:It's just like eternal sunshine and spotless mind shit.
Speaker B:Like the people paid.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:We're gonna.
Speaker A:There's very different versions of what kind of brainwashing is.
Speaker A:But we're gonna to make this simple for Mary Winchester.
Speaker A:We're gonna do Robert J. Lifton's defined steps.
Speaker A:And he got this based off of prisoners of Korean War and Chinese War camps.
Speaker A:So those were prisoners who came out praising communism.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And they're like, how is this happening?
Speaker A:So he studied a whole bunch of cases of those.
Speaker A:And so he came up with these three stages and various steps.
Speaker A:So the first stage is called breaking down the self.
Speaker A:And during this stage there are four steps and that are involved in destroying a person's sense of self breaking.
Speaker A:So the first one is an assault on identity.
Speaker A:And this involves removing the core beliefs that make a make up the ego or the self.
Speaker A:And the examples, how stuff works, gives included you are not a soldier or you were not defending freedom.
Speaker A:So in Mary's Winchester's case, I would say that they were taking away her identity as a mother.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That that was one of her core, her core systematic beliefs about herself is that she was a mother.
Speaker A:And I think that's one of the things that they were assaulting a lot by keeping keeping Dean away from her.
Speaker A:Not like letting her answer the phone.
Speaker A:And there's a lot of this that we're.
Speaker A:I'm guessing because we don't get to see her whole, her whole process.
Speaker A:But I think that's what they were doing.
Speaker A:Any other ways you think her identity was being assaulted?
Speaker B:I mean, I think that they were just trying to not take her back to they.
Speaker B:I mean Lady Babel says that they're trying to make her back into Mary Campbell, but.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So anything that happened after that, which, I mean your identity evolves with you and your experiences.
Speaker B:So they're trying to revert back to the different to, to a perceived identity.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:The second step is guilt.
Speaker A:And the victim is drowned with guilt.
Speaker A:And are Severely attacked for a transgression, so that the targets begin to feel a general sense that everything they do is wrong.
Speaker A:I'm like, this is code being Catholic.
Speaker A:But lady, I think this is.
Speaker A:Lady Bevel did that in this episode when she threw how up John Winchester was after her death and how he was the world's shittiest father.
Speaker A:So making her felt.
Speaker A:It was like I made her feel guilty about dying and just about also just that she wasn't a good mom.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So if you were a better mother, you wouldn't have given.
Speaker A:Given your kid up to Azaziel to save John Winchester.
Speaker A:So here's all this guilt that we're throwing on you about that.
Speaker B:And here's the domino effect of what happened because you did that.
Speaker B:And your kids are going to be stuck in a world with monsters because they grew up as hunters if you don't join the British Men of Letters.
Speaker B:So you have to do all these horrible things because otherwise this is all your fault.
Speaker A:It's all your fault.
Speaker A:The third.
Speaker A:Yeah, and the third.
Speaker A:The third step is self betrayal.
Speaker A:And this is after the disorientation and oodles of guilt, the victim is made to denounce those who held the same belief systems as them, family, friends, etc, And I think we first start seeing this when she is just starting to lie to the boys.
Speaker A:When she is, you know, even though I think that was.
Speaker A:Was not necessarily part of brainwashing, I think that was the first steps in the British Men of Letters trying to turn her right when they got her to be okay with lying to the boys.
Speaker A:And then just also the isolation from them.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Not.
Speaker A:Not calling them back while she was on the road with them.
Speaker A:And then in the end she freaking pulls a gun on them, which I think is the ultimate sign of.
Speaker A:I am denouncing you.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:Leaving them to die, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And the fourth step in this stage is the breaking point.
Speaker A:And this is where the victim loses it and breaks down, setting them up to be converted to a new belief system.
Speaker A:And we saw that what, as Lady.
Speaker B:Beville says, realigned, realigned.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And we see Mary mentally breaking down and unable to tell what's real.
Speaker A:And she sobs and she's go breaking down to catch.
Speaker A:And we don't see what happens in between the bunker and the scene for Mary, but they do something that convinces her to go to the bunker and turn on the boys.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:And even in the deleted scenes that wasn't in there.
Speaker A:And I do kind of feel like.
Speaker B:That was in one more session of like.
Speaker A:Yeah, it kind of cop out on the writer's part to not have that in there, so.
Speaker A:Or maybe they just thought it would be redundant.
Speaker A:But I would like to see where.
Speaker A:How we got from Mary kneeling on the floor crying to Mary holding a gun on her son.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:There's a big leap that is implied.
Speaker B:Implied a longer time frame had passed to than had.
Speaker B:Because I feel like there would have been at least another session there and there wasn't.
Speaker B:But anyways, that's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that's the first stage.
Speaker A:And I think Mary Winchester went through all of those stages.
Speaker A:So at this point, up until this point, I'm saying, oh, yeah, she's going under the rainwashing steps.
Speaker A:All right, so stage two.
Speaker A:This is the possibility of salvation.
Speaker A:In the second stage, the individual is given a promise of a way to A solution to end their suffering.
Speaker A:Creating hope and dependence.
Speaker A:As now their brainwasher is the only way to get relief.
Speaker A:And the first stage in this is leniency.
Speaker A:When the victim is offered something nice or just a reprieve from the abuse because they were already in a broken down state.
Speaker A:The victim feels that a small act is much bigger than it is is.
Speaker A:And with this one, I thought maybe, you know, when Catch was giving Mary like some kind of reprieve at the end of that breakdown where he's like, it's going to get easier, you know, I think he was.
Speaker A:You could tell, like there was some sort of like trying to give her something there.
Speaker A:But I also feel like maybe this is something that we would be missing in that scene.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like something that, like, in order for this to end, do you need, like, we'll give you this.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And she was so broken down that anything would probably.
Speaker A:So vulnerable that anything would probably feel good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Agreed.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And the second stage is the compulsion to confess.
Speaker A:In this step, the victim is given an opportunity confession.
Speaker A:And I'm not really getting this for Mary and Lisa, what we've seen, but also maybe not be vibing with it this step.
Speaker A:Okay, so they said this was for the first time in the brainwashing process.
Speaker A:The target is faced with the contrast between the guilt and pain of identity assault and the sudden relief of leniency.
Speaker A:The target may feel a desire to reciprocate the kindness offered to them.
Speaker A:And at this point, the agent may present the possibility of confession as a means to relieving guilt and pain.
Speaker B:I mean, almost with.
Speaker B:When she's asking if it be.
Speaker B:If it's now Easier to hurt people she loves, but not really.
Speaker B:That's really not there because she's not getting the preview there from it.
Speaker A:I almost am kind of wondering, though, if I'm sleeping together was also part of that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because she's part of the process and part of the brainwashing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because it was giving her some.
Speaker A:Something like.
Speaker A:And she was giving something back.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Gross.
Speaker A:But maybe.
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker A:Third step, channeling of guilt.
Speaker A:The victim's old belief system is now a source of shame.
Speaker A:But this new belief system will relieve you of that suffering.
Speaker A:So I think in the bunker, in the car, Mary seems to be on board with British Men of Letters.
Speaker B:I think she's.
Speaker B:I think she's on the path for that.
Speaker B:I think that's, like, the.
Speaker B:Clearly, like, she's still, like, not, like, fully bought in, because that's why she.
Speaker B:Because she wouldn't be talking about people she loved hurting people she loved otherwise.
Speaker B:But at the same time, she's clearly willing to do it.
Speaker B:So she's on that train.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the fourth and last step in the stage is releasing guilt and says if they only denounce their old belief system, everything will be great.
Speaker A:And I think her actions in the bunker seem to be clearly.
Speaker A:She is denouncing her old belief system, even though, like, she's not.
Speaker A:Doesn't say much.
Speaker A:She really doesn't say much to any.
Speaker B:Either.
Speaker B:Any.
Speaker A:Either of them.
Speaker A:During this.
Speaker A:During this.
Speaker B:She's doing it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And a final stage.
Speaker A:Stage three is called Rebuilding the Self.
Speaker A:And this is the time to make a new person based on the new belief system.
Speaker A:And the first step is progress and harmony.
Speaker A:The victim is made to feel it is their choice to pursue their new life over their old one.
Speaker A:Physical comfort will come with the new life as well.
Speaker A:And we kind of get this.
Speaker A:Mary is promised that things will be good if she just continues.
Speaker A:I think the.
Speaker A:The car scene at the end is a little bit of this as well.
Speaker A:Just, you know, she is odd.
Speaker A:Where this is.
Speaker A:This is the life that I'm on, and this is where we're going.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Even though I just left my children to die, which seems strange.
Speaker A:And the final step.
Speaker A:And the final step of the stages is final confession and rebirth.
Speaker A:When the victim chooses their new path, rejecting their old belief system.
Speaker A:This is often accompanied by a ritual or a ceremony, especially if you're in, like, a cult situation.
Speaker A:And I think the bunker scene could also be this, but it could also be something we haven't seen yet.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, what is the final.
Speaker A:Her final step over.
Speaker A:Although, like, you killed you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I feel we haven't seen it yet.
Speaker A:But you just killed your children.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:But she could still save them.
Speaker A:She can still save them, right?
Speaker A:We're not.
Speaker A:We're not done yet.
Speaker B:She hasn't completely abandoned them yet.
Speaker B:So I think that would be the final, like, final final.
Speaker B:I don't think we're all there.
Speaker B:We're close, which is crazy.
Speaker A:It's crazy how far she came.
Speaker A:So based on all those things, like.
Speaker A:And again, this is one.
Speaker A:One very old man, he died when he lift and died when he was 60.
Speaker A:99, Which I think.
Speaker A:Anyways.
Speaker A:And it was just like, I did a quick, like, look at his wiki.
Speaker A:I'm like, any problematic things about you?
Speaker A:And I'm like, okay, fine.
Speaker A:I don't think you are.
Speaker A:So you just never know before, like, before you start charting someone's list these days.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So anyways, these are based on his.
Speaker A:His ideas of brainwashing in terms of the process.
Speaker A:That process.
Speaker A:And I think for the most part, it does.
Speaker A:I do feel like Mary checked most of almost all the boxes.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:I feel like somebody probably followed a similar.
Speaker B:Like, they had to have known a process like that to do this successfully as a writer and follow that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:It's an interesting point.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But definitely check Mary Winchester to.
Speaker A:Winchester was brainwashed, correct?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:It's so wild.
Speaker A:And so we don't even end, though, with that scene in the car between Mary and Catch.
Speaker A:We end with one more kind of almost confusing scene.
Speaker B:So confusing.
Speaker A:Where the is Lucifer?
Speaker B:He's in, like, a weird CGI mountain.
Speaker A:Why is he on a mountain?
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:A CGI mountain with a sunrise.
Speaker B:And he looks very happy because he is free now.
Speaker B:But it's also just a really weird.
Speaker B:Like, he's just.
Speaker A:A baby and he has.
Speaker A:He's finally living his best life.
Speaker B:I guess it's just.
Speaker A:It was just.
Speaker A:It's a very odd scene and, you know, especially.
Speaker A:We'll talk about that and wrap up.
Speaker A:All right, so any.
Speaker A:Any characters for us to learn about?
Speaker B:Casting couch.
Speaker B:It's the casting couch.
Speaker C:Were they on that show that time with that guy?
Speaker B:La la la la la la la la la la la.
Speaker B:Yeah, not too many.
Speaker B:We knew a lot of the folks in this episode already, so we've got.
Speaker B:Rick was played by Andrew McNee.
Speaker B:He's been in episodes of Hellcats, Supergirl, Magicians, the Hollow Batwoman.
Speaker B:He's done voice work for My Little Pony and Ninja Go.
Speaker B:He was Hoss in the Scary Movie 4 movie and Coach Malone in the Diary of a Wimpy Kid movies.
Speaker B:And then one of our techs for it's British Men of Letters folks, there's a tech named Sergeant Serge De Saul.
Speaker B: the dad in Child's Play, the: Speaker B:And Paige was played by Chelsea Gill.
Speaker B:She's been in episodes of Altered Carbon Snowpiercer Supergirl.
Speaker B:She is.
Speaker B:She was Sarah in the film Before I Fall and has done a lot of Christmas Hallmark movies too.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker A:So, yeah, just to wrap up this episode as some final thoughts.
Speaker A:And I said, like, that was a weird way to end.
Speaker B:Very weird a scene.
Speaker B:Just I was like, wait, what's happening?
Speaker A:And so I knew some up.
Speaker A:You know, we know that Crowley is maybe dead.
Speaker B:Possibly, yes.
Speaker A:Possibly.
Speaker A:Although possibly not.
Speaker A:You know, like, it's Crowley, wink, wink, wink.
Speaker A:But Lucifer is definitely out and about and he's on Earth, out of Hell.
Speaker A:So Lucifer's out of Hell looking for his baby and his baby mama and.
Speaker A:But Mary has completely.
Speaker A:The boys over who are now locked in the bunker, which has been made to kill them, which is just weird that the bunker can be turned against them like that.
Speaker B:That is kind of weird.
Speaker A:It is kind of weird.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker A:We are, you know, we're almost at the end of the season.
Speaker B:We are.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:It's almost end of the season.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:I found this episode really stressful.
Speaker B:And I found that last scene really weird.
Speaker B:I mean, I get that's illustrating that he's on Earth now.
Speaker B:It was, but it was just like.
Speaker B:Wait, what?
Speaker B:Like, we've got this really intense.
Speaker B:Everything's very upsetting.
Speaker B:Mary's brainwashed.
Speaker B:And then Lucifer's, like, laughing on a mountaintop with the sun shining.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I mean, I guess I get the contrast.
Speaker B:It was just seemed very out of.
Speaker A:Place also just visually the contrast.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We've been very in, you know, in.
Speaker A:In dark spaces.
Speaker A:We've been in the asylum, we've been in the bunker, we've been in the Conexes.
Speaker A:And now we're just a lot of CGI mountain.
Speaker B:So bright.
Speaker A:Just weird.
Speaker B:I think, what is happening.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So who knows what will happen next?
Speaker A:But Lucifer is just very happy about his baby.
Speaker B:He's very happy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So honestly, it kind of makes me happy that when Lucy.
Speaker A:I mean, just he's just so charming, like, as he's, you know, like, winking at Crowley, like, even as he's murdering Crowley.
Speaker A:He was charming, you know, which is, you know, you know, the, you know, Lucifer is a charming, charming thing.
Speaker B:So anyhow.
Speaker A:So any other thoughts?
Speaker B:No, that's it.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:We'll wrap it up then.
Speaker A:Cheers.
Speaker B:Devilish Trap Podcast is a Don't get it production.
Speaker C:Devil's Trap Podcast is part of the Ship It Studio Podcast network.
Speaker C:Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Devil's Trap Podcast.
Speaker C:You can follow us on Instagram at Devil's Trapp Podcast, Twitter at Devil's Trapp Pod, or you can email us@devilstrapilstrappodcast.com don't forget to subscribe, leave reviews and share with all your friends.
Speaker C:We're at all your favorite podcast outlets and@devilstrap podcast.com I'm Babe.
Speaker C:Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next time.
Speaker B:Going up to the spirit in the skies?
Speaker B:It's where I'm gonna go when I die?
Speaker B:When I die and they lay me the best?
Speaker B:I'm gonna go to a place I. Sam.
